Pouch cells?

Ivo Staelens

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Aug 21, 2017
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While dismantling my last batch of e bike batteries, I noticed some batteries containing rectangular cells, but in a hard casing. Are these also lipo batteries? and can these potentialy be used in a powerwall?

They seem very sturdy to me and not at all that fragile as some posts mention here.

But some advice would be greatly appreciated
 
Yeah they could potentially be used. You have hard- and soft-case LiPos out there. They are not as safe as 18650 cased cells in general.
 
It's not uncommon for ebike batteries to be made from LiPo pouches. You can use them if you want to and have enough of them. If they are in a hardcase it makes handling very convenient.
 
DarkRaven said:
It's not uncommon for ebike batteries to be made from LiPo pouches. You can use them if you want to and have enough of them. If they are in a hardcase it makes handling very convenient.

You aren't suggesting mixing liion and lipo, right? I think that's wrong. Pretty sure Ivo is using liion already from his previous posts. I'm not sure if it's safe to mix the two different types. Could someone verify?
 
Well, no, I'm not. But not because this would be a problem, but because Ivo asked if they can be used on a powerwall, not if they can be mixed with LiIon. However, in another thread it was asked specifically if LiPo and LiIon can be mixed. And my answer was yes, because electrically it isn't a problem at all. However, I advised not to do it unless you have a good reason because they don't make neat packs together with cylindrical LiIon cells. Same advise would apply here, if the question comes up.
 
I agree fully with DarkRaven on that. In same string/bank always use one type if you "can". If not beware of what do differ between them
 
Do they look like these (ignore the yellow-striped pouches in the background of the second photo)? I have a few Samsung and Panasonicliion cells like this, whichI pulled from (I believe)Dell batteries. I've found some specs here. Most are in the 3-4 Ah range.


image_nzfowf.jpg


image_unjdst.jpg
 
Took some pictures of cells I dismantled

image_rsgamd.jpg


Can each cell be treated as a 18650 cell, being it can be charged and tested as one? I also have read here about LiFePO4 cells... They have a different chemistry.

I read on the nameplate Li Ion so.... I think they are li ion, but I'm not sure
 
If you think you might have got LiFe cells and it doesn't say anything on them then it is easy to find out by checking the voltage of the battery and counting the number of cells. Their nomimal voltage is lower so you will have more cells to get the same voltage (compared with LiIon or LiPo).
Pouches are always LiPo, which is just LiIon with a solid electrolyte, and LiFe usually come in cylindrical or prismatic form.
 
They are all "LiIons" or "Lithium" cells. The difference is the second chemical, Cobalt, Iron, Magnesium, etc.

The most common "LiIon" cell is the Lithium Cobolt, or LiCo. The second most common is the Lithium Iron, LiFe, and then Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePo4. I believe Lithium Polymer are the LiPo's.

So, don't get your chemistries mixed up. However, most cells that are labeled "Li Ion" are the Lithium Cobalt variety. And cells that are bigger than 18650's are not "basically" two cells put together. A lot of times they are just 1 cell that just has more wraps of the sheeting and forced into a rectangular or semi-rectangular shape.

And yes, check charged voltage to see if they are LiIon (Lithium Cobalts) or if they are LiFe/LiFePO4 cells. They do differ in nominal voltage. But you really wanna find out before you charge them as it's not good to over charge any cell chemistry, even though LiFe/LiFePO4 cells can handle the over voltage a lot better than LiCo's can


Side Note: I'm sure I will be corrected by Daromer if my chemistries are off :p
 
I think magnesium isn't used :)
Technically you are right, but this whole topic has a backpack full of naming issues, not only because people use it wrong or simplify it, but also because the manufacturers not always state the complete chemistry and because there are "in between / hybrid chemistries" which are a mix :) Also some terms overlap with other ones.
It's also a nice topic for a little deep dive, so shall we? Might be worth copying it over to the FAQ!

I usually try to make an effort to give correct designations hence I use the term lithium cell a lot. This is always correct, but not always very precise. Depends on whether this kind of precision is important.
I use LiIon for all lithium chemistries with a fluid electrolyte and 3.6/3.7V nominal voltage, that covers basically all cylindrical cells. If I were more precise then I would differentiate between their chemistries. Most common ones are lithium cobalt / LiCo / ICR cells, usually found in laptops, powerbanks and so on. Then there is lithium manganese / LiMn / IMR which, unlike the ICR cells, are high drain cells for powertools and similar applications. They were superseded, sort of, by (and now fasten your seatbelts) lithium nickel manganese cobalt / LiNiMnCo / INR cells. This is a hybrid chemistry, not hard to figure out why. These are the main three chemistries, obviously some manufacturers also vary the amounts of the respective element in the mix. Samsungs ICR cells aren't chemically identical to the LG ones and also almost every manufacturer makes several different cells of each type.
There are more chemistries beside these three, a notable one is Teslas lithium aluminium chemistry which is like INR but swaps manganese for aluminium. It is called NCA.
Lithium iron phosphate / LiFe / LiFePo / IFR cells belong to the aforementioned ones technically, but are often handled separately because of their lower nominal voltage of 3.2V.
All of them come in cylindrical forms, LiFe also often in prismatic forms. The other LiIon chemistries come in prismatic forms as well, but not as often as LiFe (I think).

Lithium polymer cells always come in pouch form. They use similar chemistries with cobalt, manganese and so on, but their electrolyte isn't fluid. It isn't completely solid either but a semi solid gel. Basically it is a kind of plastic. They have the advantage of being lightweight and can easily be build in any shape you need.

LiIon: Refers to all of them, specifically ICR, IMR and INR, nominal voltage 3.6V-3-7V, usually cylindrical cells, sometimes prismatic
ICR: LiIon, made to provide highest capacity for applications where runtime is important but high current discharge isn't
IMR: LiIon, high drain cells for applications with high discharge currents
INR: LiIon, like IMR with some of the benefits of ICR while not losing IMR qualities completely

LiFe/LiFePo/LiFePo4/IFR: LiIon, but often mentioned separately because of lower nominal voltage of 3.2V, cylindrical and prismatic cells

LiPo: Like the other LiIons, but separated from them by their semi solid electrolyte, always in non-standard pouch cells

I hope this is comprehensible, I've put some effort into it to make it as clear as possible :)
 
@ korishan... There you have it... now Daniel still have to go over it... :D

I must say, this is the most complete summary i have seen till now... copy/paste to the faq ill say.

For me, it is just 18650 and "other" i am affraid. ;)
 
Yes! To the FAQ, Batman! :p
 
LOL :D
 
Ivo Staelens said:
Took some pictures of cells I dismantled

image_rsgamd.jpg


Can each cell be treated as a 18650 cell, being it can be charged and tested as one? I also have read here about LiFePO4 cells... They have a different chemistry.

I read on the nameplate Li Ion so.... I think they are li ion, but I'm not sure

Those cells, still wrapped in blue shrink wrap, any idea what the chemistry is, I found a pack of them, 10 in the pack, absolutely no markings on them at all, even after stripping the wrap off the dead one. Varying voltages on the other 9, from 1.2v up to 3.9v.
 
Terry said:
IvoStaelens said:
Took some pictures of cells I dismantled

image_rsgamd.jpg


Can each cell be treated as a 18650 cell, being it can be charged and tested as one? I also have read here about LiFePO4 cells... They have a different chemistry.

I read on the nameplate Li Ion so.... I think they are li ion, but I'm not sure

Those cells, still wrapped in blue shrink wrap, any idea what the chemistry is, I found a pack of them, 10 in the pack, absolutely no markings on them at all, even after stripping the wrap off the dead one. Varying voltages on the other 9, from 1.2v up to 3.9v.

No clue realy. I'll just treat them as a prismatic cell and test capacity and such :)
 
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